Cape Town - News24 interviewed ID leader Patricia de Lille on February 26, as part of a series of interviews with the leaders of eight major parties in South Africa. Read an excerpt from the interview in the below transcript, including questions from News24 users.
You can find the article based on this interview here and our video interview with more policy questions not included below here.
*Questions may have been phrased slightly differently in the interview.
1) You surprised many in the last national election by doing well with your newly established party. Do you think your party will fare well in the next election? Any predictions?
You are correct that South Africans responded wonderfully and favourably to the Independent democrats. To me I always knew I could lead but the challenge was on South Africans to see how they would respond to the first women leader in this country. So having achieved being the first women that started a party, contested the elections, won seats, I've done it for all women and so I've opened up the way for other women to come in. Yes we've never stopped work from the day that we won the elections in 2004. We continue to build and build.
From 2004 to where we are now four years later what we've achieved in between is in 2006 with the local government elections we increased out vote to half a million so our target for now is one million. We think it's realistic, it's achievable. We've got 300 000 members on our database, we have won 11 byelections, we are in government in 26 municipalities and we've also been able to increase our representation during local government elections so we're very confident. The Markinor research which was done in October last year does show that the ID is the most nonracial party in the country. So we're very happy about it. Our support base currently is 40% coloured and Indian, 26% white and 23% black so that makes us the most representative party. We're also the least offensive. There are only 5% of South Africans that say they will never vote for the ID compared to 16% for the DA and 18% for the IFP and 8% for the ANC.
2) The political landscape has changed with the arrival of Cope. How do you think they will fare?
Yes with the emergence of the cope it certainly opened up the political landscape. Cope will be taking a slice of the vote from the ANC. I don't think they will take much support from other parties. But I think there are three things for me that are important. The challenges they have to face as Cope is that: one, they have to sort out their leadership problems, the second one is that they have to show to the country that they've got policies different to the ANC and the third one is to build structures. If they can get those three things right they certainly will be receiving a sizeable chunk of the vote in 2009.
3) You have a background in trade unions and some left-leaning sensibilities. Is ID a business-friendly party? How do you see the role of the private sector in our country? We definitely see a role for the private sector in terms of partnerships between the public sector and private sector. We believe that not one government, irrespective of who is government, can deal with the backlog and the socio-economic problems and the reconstruction and development of our country alone. So we see the private sector playing a major role in assisting government to rebuild our country.
4) How much regulation would you condone?
We don't want too much regulation that stifles business. We are currently saying there is a lot of red tape especially for small and medium businesses that we would like to look at and ensure that it doesn't become cumbersome to be in business but we certainly welcome the role that business must play in South Africa.
5) Are the labour laws too stringent in SA? Is it stifling business?
Well you see the hypocrisy of the people who are saying that the labour laws are stifling business is so- nobody has challenged it yet. Because in Nedlac (National Economic Development and Labour Council) you have business, you've got labour and you've got government. They've all agreed, at Nedla,c to the current labour legislation that we have but then business will go out and say no it's too stringent. They must go back to Nedlac and they must go sort it out inside of Nedlac if there are problems with the labour relations act as it is now.
6) You've been instrumental in bringing the arms deal scandal to the public's attention. There's been a lot of media coverage since. What aspect do you think has perhaps been overlooked?
Certainly what is missing is that there several allegations that are contained in the De Lille dossier that government has refused to investigate because that De Lille dossier contains information that has lead to two successful prosecutions: Tony Yengeni, Schabir Shaik and now Jacob Zuma. and there are many others. And that is what is missing. There is a selective prosecuting of certain people only and not everybody that is alleged to be involved in the arms deal scandal. So the only answer is a judicial commission of enquiry that will assist us.
7) You have a strong presence in the Western Cape. Some of our readers have asked: What are you doing to build your party's base in other provinces?
No that's certainly not correct, and especially our detractors are using that. The ID has got representation in all nine provinces. We are a work in progress, in the five years we have been able to build branches and structures in all nine provinces. The strong bases of the ID is Gauteng, Western Cape, Northern Cape, North West, Eastern Cape and the Free State. The two provinces where we still need to do a lot more work in Limpopo and Mpumalanga. In Gauteng our strongest base is in the east rand- Kempton Park, Daverton, Thembisa, those areas. Followed by the Johannesburg Metro and then followed by Tshwane. So those are our strong areas in Gauteng. In the North West in Rustenburg, Klerksdorp, Potchefstroom, Mafikeng - all of those areas - and there ID support bases are, for the purposes of making a distinction, all black. So this perception that we are coloured is completely misplaced. It's just because people look at me. And I can safely say that I am a South African first and foremost so its not true that we are completely Western Cape based.
8) One of your biggest platforms is your stand against corruption and crime. Now we're hearing all the opposition parties speak out against this. What other areas do you think your party outshines the rest in?
Well first of all we are strong on corruption because corruption steals from the poor. Another area where we also stand out from the rest is our view on transformation. We accept that we are in a difficult period in the development of our country where we are in transition from an old order to a new order and at the same time we are asked to transform our society - it's a massive task for any nation. And the ID puts special emphasis on transformation.
9) You famously called for government controls of blogging and other user-generated content on the internet. There was a huge backlash from the public and the media. Do you think your comments were misunderstood? Where do you stand on the issue now?
Yes it was quite a misinterpretation deliberately to say that I called for censorship. I've never even used the word censorship because I fought against censorship. I fought for a free country, freedom of the press, freedom of association. The concern at that time was with Mxit. And of course the blog which was against Simon Grinrod. What we have said is that like everything else - you know there is, Icasa - has regulations. We just said that those regulations need to be implemented. We did not call for anything extra that was not there already there. But we've since corrected this. I had a meeting with the people of Mxit. I've looked at what they are doing. You know all systems have got weaknesses. But right now it's a system that is used with NGOs, HIV/Aids and so on, so again it was completely misplaced to say I've called for censorship.
10) So right now your stance is?
We support any communication on any technology today. Technology is advancing on a daily basis and I mean we use some of it ourselves.
11) On the subject of criticism? other opposition parties took issue with you attending just 12 of the 80 sittings of parliament in 2002. What was your attendance like last year?
The only opposition party that has been obsessed with what I am doing is the DA. And I see my role as a member of parliament not just to sit in parliament on the soft benches and sleep and listen to some of the debates that could actually brain damage you if you sit there all day. I see my role as a member of parliament that I must spend time with the people who have elected me, go out and go listen to them, go do constituency work. I see part of my role as a member of parliament to make laws and the third one is I see my role in parliament to make sure that especially the gender balance and the gender issues that also you engage with civil society. So I like spending my time getting the information, listening to constituencies and bringing it back to parliament, rather than sitting in committees all the time, which at the end of the day causes a vacuum between leaders and people on the ground. My passion is with the people rather than spending all my time just in parliament.
I've always held the record in parliament by the way, of asking the most questions, participating in the most debates, part of writing the final constitution. In 2003 when I started the ID I scaled down on the committees because I was now a leader of a political party and had so many more responsibilities.
11.b) So can you give us a figure for your attendance?
No I don't even keep records. I can give you a percentage of how I spend my times: 40% away from parliament to consult and listen to the constituencies and bring it back to parliament. The other 60% I spend here at parliament and on party work. I serve only on one committee now and that is the code of ethics committee and for the rest I participate in major debates in parliament as a leader now.
12) What do you feel your specific role in South Africa's political landscape has been? List your achievements for our readers?
You know I have been involved since the early nineties and I am one of the few people still left in parliament. We have seen our transition through everybody else has left for greener pastures into business wherever they went. So my role has been to keep on reminding, especially the ruling party, where we came from and what was the values the vision that we fought for in the struggle against apartheid - be the conscience of the nation, to say to people, this is not what the struggle was all about. You know I always use the analogy of a young tree. You know this young tree of ours is only 15 years old and there are signs that it is beginning to grow in the wrong direction and therefore I see my role as keeping this young tree on the straight and narrow.
13) Alan Boesak in considering running as premier of the WC and he has a lot of support in communities that would ordinarily support you. Do you consider him a threat? Who is your own candidate for premier of the province?
Well I think to underestimate the electorate to claim that Boesak has support based on no scientific research it's certainly not on. He's been out of politics for more than ten years and people move on and so you see the elections will finally determine if he has got the support. The people that do know him are people from '83, the formation of UDF and so on and even some of those people have moved on so I'm not sure if that statement is correct if he's even got that support. The ID is in the process of finalising our list process, we will make a public statement on Sunday - still busy with people not happy with where they are on the list. So we will know on Sunday who our premier is for the WC.
14) Why should people vote for you and not the DA? How are the parties different?
Oh there's a big difference between the ID and the DA in terms of ideology and policies. Our policies is pro-transformation, it's pro-poor, where on the DA's side they talk about an equal opportunity open society, which to me is really an insult to our history, because you can't now declare that everyone is equal [and say]: you have to run the same race. [It's] not considering and not supporting transformation. So if we could bring people up to the same level first, and then you can be equal and have access to equal opportunity. That's the major difference between the ID and the DA.
15) Is the government doing a bad job of BBBEE? How does the ID envision that?
You see first of all BEE is not a panacea for all our economic problems because we've got structural problems within the economy. BEE as a concept is good but it's the way it's implemented, because people are not sticking to the letter of the law, which says that people who qualify for BEE and AA is black, coloured, Indian, white women, disabled. If we can keep to the defined group of people in implementing AA and BEE it certainly will not be where it is today.
16) The DA claimed after by-elections in December that there had been a "quite spectacular" swing away from the Independent Democrats to the DA in Cape Town. "In Mitchells Plain [a coloured area] the DA won 91.5% of the vote... up from 42.5% in 2006. The ID got 4.9% in those voting districts, down from 30.7% in 2006." Are you losing the so-called "coloured" vote?
You know I think any serious analyst will know that by-elections are not an indicator of provincial or national support. The ID won five by-elections on the same date and out of the five by-elections four that we won we beat the ANC, the DA and Cope. One of the five - it was just ID versus Cope. So what happened there in one ward is nothing to compare where ID beat, as a young political party, remember the DA is long established, the ANC is long-established and we've been able- so far we've won 11 by-elections. We're the only political party in the country that has been able to beat both the ANC and the DA in by-elections. So that is just Ryan Coetzee spin doctoring.
17) The ID is in a coalition government with the DA in Cape Town and has previously sided with the ANC. They're very different parties? My question is: will you go into a coalition government with parties you disagree with?
You see a coalition is going to become, especially after 2009, part of our political landscape, and that comes about because the Constitution prescribes that if you want to constitute any provincial government or national government it must be done on the basis of 50% plus 1. What will happen in the Western Cape, in the Northern Cape, Gauteng and even the Eastern Cape will be, that not one party will receive a clear 50% +1 to constitute on their own. So the ID know and all research is showing in the Western Cape currently the DA is on 30%, ID on 24% and Cope on 8% so we'll certainly have coalitions. So after the elections it's numbers: it's the parties that can come together to put that 50%+1 together. Our experience - because we've been part of pioneering coalitions in the Western Cape where we are in 26 municipalities we are in coalitions including the metro. Once you get into a coalition you have to fight to keep your own identity and keep your own agenda. And that is what we've been doing inside coalition.
18) Will you form a coalition government with the ANC?
The WC as a province have taken a decision that because the ANC and the infighting in the ANC has lead to a negative impact on the fight against crime and the fight for better service delivery that as a province the provincial structure of the ID has decided that they will not go with the ANC.
18) Will this vary for the rest of the country?
It will definitely vary for the rest of the country. You see even the ANC and the DA are working together in coalitions. It's the numbers, it's the choice of the voters. If the voters don't give anyone of us a clear 51% then we are forced to have a coalition. And so you see in some municipalities it's ID and DA. In one municipality it's ID, DA and ANC - in Oudtshoorn because of the numbers after the elections.
Reader Question: Kevin Jacobs
Patricia As a black voter, I am concerned that the ID is dependant on only YOU. I have not heard of, nor seen anyone other in the ID express their or the party views. What would happen to the ID if you are no longer there?
It is simply not true. You see unless people only want to selectively listen when I am speaking. But in the past five years the ID has built our other members of parliament. Lance Greyling is a specialist in environmental issues. He's been on television, on radio a lot. Hanif Hussein is a specialist on education matters and crime. He's been up there a lot. It doesn't take five years to build a profile but all leaders in SA with no exception - you can say the same question - who else do you know in the DA except Helen Zille, who else do you know in the UDM except Bantu Holomisa, it's because SA politics is very personality driven. But I want to assure Kevin that certainly that there are certainly a lot more leaders in the ID. They might not appear in the media as often so that he could see what they are doing but they are certainly busy and they know in their communities.
- Verashni Pillay